Jairo i am going to pick on you!!!!! (smile) , i don't see Ebonics as a language if that was the case then we would have no problems making it part of the educational system. Until i hear that Yale university accepted it and it's now part of their curriculum i will think about it.

I don't agree that these languages are hybrids instead of slang specially spanglish. The power indeed lies with the number of people that speak it the most, however this phenomenon began because the government failed to impose the emigration laws in existence. Now with over 11 million illegals and not immigrants, because to get that status you have to go to the embassy where a special visa is issued with the term immigrant in it. they are simply law breakers and what happens is without the means to trace them they ended up generating a new generation and have because of the power of numbers created their own version of their language and English and call it spanglish. We can't just create words and start naming it cubanenglish or germanenglish and expect it to be accepted as a language. If that's the case than we all might as well just start our own version of english mainly the other culture that help founding this nation

The ghost of segregation stills seems to haunt us...

Seems I misunderstood my responsibility to post by Sunday night. Nevertheless, here's my response to the topic:

"Are these hybrids language varieties or are they slang? Are they full language systems or are they reduced or less intelligent forms of Standard English?"

I would, without question, defend the status of the hybrids as language varieties; simply because they do not conform to the dominant modes of language is not evidence of their diminutive or deficient status. I'd find suspect any claims that there other reasons to believe that the hybrids are reduced or less intelligent forms of S.A.; I am becoming more and more convinced that such claims are merely justifications for discrimination, and ultimately, oppression.

This is tantamount to claiming that someone who has studied existentialism is ignorant of philosophy because they may not have studied dialectical materialism; language is a tool - if it works, and its useful, and it communicates meaning - all qualifications which Black English meets - then it's "good". Exclusionary discourse and phantom hierarchies are worthless at best, and oppressive at worst.

Response to Carlene

Carlene makes an interesting point. I had not though of that. It goes to show that for a way of speaking to be considered language, dialect, or hybrid must be determined by the speakers of that "language". If enough people speak it, then it becomes recognized or naturilized (if this term even applies here) :)

Language Varieties.

Reading some of the other posts, it made me think of something. Does the interpretation of whether a variety is slang or just it's own variety depend on who is interpreting it? Because with the British and American english, do the British think that we are using thier standard English but adding a horrible accent and "twist" to thier rules for the language? And even though many throughout the world assume that english is American English, do all countries? And are there places where, when the word English is thought of, the British version is what comes to mind instead?

Language or Slang?

I can see where Carlene comes from in considering these hybrid languages to be a slang form of standard English. I think that most of us think we will sound as though we are degrading the different dialects if we call them slang, however that is because many of us associate slang with trashy words. I am not really sure whether I would consider them to be slang but they are certainly not languages of their own. The barrowed words and phrases could be construed as slang but they are all different dialects, to be sure.

More Than Slang

The different variations of English we have been talking about are much more than just slang. Much of it has had an origin in slang, but it has definitely evolved into more than that. When I think about slang, I think one of the most important characteristics of it is that it can only be understood by a smaller part of society. But, when you have an obviously different form of English that can be used and understood by other speakers of varied English it is its own variety.

I don't see how Ebonics or Spanglish (or any other variation) is any different from a "Chicago accent" or "California accent". In that they are all altered forms of English pronunciation and syntax that the speakers have modified to meet their individual communication needs. Aren't they? If not, then why should there be a standard American English that is separate from standard British English?

Any variation has its own standards and rules that need to be used when speaking. Without even thinking about it we all apply a set of rules, that are different from textbook grammar rules, to our own language. Then when we hear another variation of English being spoken it sounds wrong.

Variety of Languages: An Inevitable Ocurrence

At the beginning of the class I said that I try my best to adhere to English grammar, and correctness of the language. After going over the readings and discussions in the class, I believe my point of view has dramatically changed. For instance, in the case of Ebonics, I see it as a hybrid language and not just mere slang. Prior to this class, I had no idea Black English had its own set of grammatical rules. I find the evolution of English very interesting, and refreshing.

The emergence of hybrid languages is inevitable as well as the efforts from some to dispute its validity. I used to be part of the ladder group. Some of us are more resistant to change than others. However, I am completely convinced at this point that all of these variations of the language are part of a natural process based on survival and practicality.

This topic has sparked my interest in continuing to follow the evolution of language as part of my continuous study of the English language.

Jairo Toro

Form and Flux

I believe that all of the hybrids we have discussed are definitely language varieties, and not merely slang or reduced or "lazy" versions of English. (However, "slang" is not a derogatory term for me. Slang is remarkably creative and not at all lazy. Slang is street poetry.) When I first read about the "five present tenses" of Black English in Rickford's "Suite for Ebony and Phonics", I was a bit skeptical, thinking it was a set of rules imposed by linguists on something that was much more fluid (or "lazy" as some may have it) in actual use, but then I went on to read about the rules for dropping consonants at the end of words being based on voiced or voiceless sounds, and I was convinced that it is in fact systematic and structured. The fact that this system emerges spontaneously without anyone being conscious of any of the rules is a fascinating fact.

As to whether various hybrids like "Spanglish" are full or complete language systems is hard to determine. They are certainly not as vast as modern standard English, but English is old and these languages are young. I think many people are working under a kind of Platonic view of language, that there is some kind of ideal form, a language that either exists now or existed at some point in the past that may become corrupted. Different language systems do have their particular virtues, but I don't believe such a thing has ever or will ever exist. Language, like the culture it expresses, is always in flux.

I would say that there are different types of these systems. (for example) I would say that Ebonics is a form of reduced language, due to the fact that English is the base and they don't use any other language variety. Spanglish for example uses two languages, Spanish and English. So i would say Spanglish would be constituted as a language Hybrid.

Language Variety

I beleive that these language varieties are hybrids, not slang. These varieties come from two languages that are mixed into one. Slang words are different words that are used to describe something better or that fits in with the culture of speaker. I think that these language varieties are full language systems of Standard English. I beleive this because it comes from two lanagues that have mixed to form one languge. I mainly think that it shoudl be viewed as a full language because people understand it and it is commonly used. We learned in class that language use comes from the power of people speaking the language. These varieties have been increasingly getting bigger and are used by large amounts of people. Spanglish use has been increasing in numbers with has given the language more power. I will not be suprised if it is viewed as a full language in years to come.

Lg. variety

Growing up in Park City, there are a lot of hispanics in a nearby neighborhood. Working at different restaraunts over the years has allowed me to communicate with them. For some reason I always immediately take to them and try and speak in Spanish. They in return try to learn more english. Some of the bussers and are also hispanic and can tell they speak spanglish. I think that it is a form of slang in the fact that they are taking two standard languages and intertwining them. They aren't necessarily forming a new language just mixing two. BEV is similar, they are using the standard engish but adding and twisting the words to communicate in their own way. The weird part most english terms that our society use come from other countries. I think that languages may form eventually from slang. For now since most language use stems from standard english, spanglish, konglish, etc. are only slang.

Reduced

I feel most languages that are an offshoot of English start out as slang, cockney rhyming slang is an excellent example because the way individuals use this language is argot in nature (language intended to keep people out of the know). Many other language varieties are used for this purpose; I feel that Ebonics started out as a way for slaves to communicate with each other and not sound too intelligent. I feel that people still continue to use these language varieties because the dialects and syntax of the spoken discourse is developed in the children’s minds as they grown and are exposed to their environment.

For each different language variety of English there is going to be a different opinion on what is correct and incorrect. I feel that most language varieties of English are reduced forms of the standard language, they borrow words but the sentence structures can be confusing.

Language Variety

The many language varietys that are in America right now are not thier own seperate language. I think they are slang, whether it is Ebonics, Chinglish, Konglish, etc. Yes, they are all spoken differently than standard english, but i say they are slang because the basis for them is standard english. Many of the languages are trying to assimilate to the American culture, and are learning standard engligh. I think of these varieties as almost an accent that the person has. It is still english and I can understand them, and you can tell where they are from based on the accent. It comes across more as slang as they have modified some of our words but not the entire language.

October 25 Blog Post response

It seems that most people fear rather than fully embrace other cultures. If Ebonics becomes a recognized language it does not mean, in my opinion that it would or even can take over the dominant language. We learned that all languages inevitably change and evolve, as all language, English is no exception. English has borrowed from Dutch, French, German, American Indian, Creole, African and other languages. It therefore carries with it more than the dominant culture, but also the above cultures as well.
These adopted cultures are expressed through English on a regular basis. Words that expressed food, fishing, hunting, as well as the tools used to build communities, which in turn fused the American culture together. Consequently, those words and the culture that originated with them make up the fabric of the American society.
Perhaps consulting with African Americans and American Indians regarding their language is a place to start, if it had not been already done. Then, the decision to allocate resources to either revive a language or make room for others should be considered. Since the use of language communicates one’s culture, I think that we need to look at how many people in a given culture speak the language and wish to use it to pass on their way of life.
Is a way of speaking a language or dialects? To me it ultimately does not matter what label we give it. I think that we need to acknowledge those around us that contribute to our way of life and want a place to express the main characteristics that makes them who they are. The history of the provenance of languages gives its users a sense of their place within the dominant culture. It also gives them the sense of its importance. American Indian and Ebonics or Spanglish languages all blended with English under different circumstances. American Indian as all languages was a native and born out of survival and necessity, to communicate the speakers’ needs and express their belonging to their tribal societies. Ebonics, as we saw in class developed under rough circumstances and their speakers used it to create connections with those who did not share the same tongue in order to build relationships that could help with their survival. The relationships were not based on common societal values, but developed later as pidgin evolved into Creole. Spanglish was also born out of struggle between Spanish speakers and English speakers. The immigration issues that were recently debated shows that the dominant bloc is resistant to change even though it is happening. Cultures change and evolve as languages do.

In Response to Nadia's post

I definitely agree that people come into America and bring cultures, traditions, and other languages with them. They do not lose their history but they assimilate into American culture. People try to learn English to succeed here and because it is a second language, certain elements will blend with their native tongue. The end result is a reduced version of English with some additions, but certainly not separate and complete languages. Some cases grow into dialects and are found in regions in the U.S. just like many other countries. Schools should not require courses on different dialects, as there are so many it would be silly. We should not suppress outside cultures but we don't need to force them into our lives either.

Ebonics and Language hybrids

As far as Ebonics goes, I do not believe it is a language all its own. Many people who speak Black English use a lot of slang, but not everyone. I would not say Ebonics is just slang, I would label it a dialect of English. It does have a grammar system but it is a simpler version of standard English. Yes, I do consider it to be a less intelligent version of English, because it takes much less study to comprehend and is not an academic language. There are fewer words and phrases used in Ebonics to describe ideas and concepts that humans think and feel.

Language hybrids, such as Spanglish and others, I would not consider those to be slang either. Again, they should not be categorized as separate languages, but dialects. They are a mix of English and other languages and therefore take words from existing languages. They are a mix, but they are intelligent and are certainly not lazy.

Just add -izzle, it'll be fun-izzle.

I really don't think that Black English Vernacular (Ebonics) is slang. How can we define it as so? I reviewed my notes from class the day we went over slang and this was the general definition that we came up with: "Slang is a creative or innovative use of lg. that establishes community or identity to a particular group of "tribe." If everyone remembers, we were talking about particular words (cool, wasted, pig, etc), and also went on to talk about a variety of different types of slang such as clipping, blending, or acronyms. The dictionary definition of slang is a "very informal usage in vocabulary and idiom that is characteristically more metaphorical, playful, elliptical, vivid, and ephemeral than ordinary language."

I can see where it would be easy to assume that Ebonics is simply slang. While I give that warrant and I can understand the assumptions, based on these definitions, I cannot see how we can say Ebonics is just a set of "words" that we borrow from the mother language and alter to our own means. This may be a common misconception because Ebonics carries a lot of slang words and terms that aren't "standard" in Standard English. Ebonics is more than just a word or two or a few dropped constants here or there. We have learned that there are rules and order to how it is spoken and used. While it isn't the language of the dominant bloc, it still has merit as more than just a slang of English. It holds a culture. It may have begun as a slang, it has transcended that status. I researched several websites online and the general consensus seems to be that Ebonics is a creole. What was it we said creole's were again? Not once in class did we say that a creole is slang. Ebonics probably won't survive to become it's own official language because, in the end, Standard English will prevail because it is the language of power. As far as Ebonics being "less intelligent..." That is subjective and overall a very hard question to answer. To me personally, Ebonics does not sound intelligent. I don't speak it and people don't really speak it to me. However, because it doesn't meet my expectation of intelligence in language does mean that Ebonics is a "less intelligent form of English." It is just a different form of English. Who am I to make that judgement, anyway?

On a more fun note, I did a general Google search on Ebonics. Several linguistics-related websites came up that were very interesting to read, but that wasn't what I was looking for. I wanted to know what real people thought about Ebonics. By real people I mean people that aren't studying it. I found two websites of interest. The first is "DA Ebonics Site." (http://joel.net/EBONICS/translator.asp) It is a "translator" for Ebonics. You type a phrase or word in and click a button that says "Ebonify dis whack English" and it gives you the "Ebonics" equivalent. It's fun to go there, but grossly inaccurate. The disclaimer at the bottom reads: "This website is an Ebonics related entertainment site. This is not real Ebonics. It is mostly slang and what people perceive as Ebonics. View this site in jest. If you think this is actually real Ebonics or believe me to be either racist or promoting Ebonics... then you're an idiot." This person brings up a lot of interesting points, but at the end even seems like he wants to dissociate himself from Ebonics. He's making a joke, and it seems that maybe he thinks Ebonics as a whole is a joke.

The other website I found was an "Urban Dictionary." (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ebonics) This is a site that allows people to write what they think a term means. It's a little upsetting to read for me. The majority of people regard it as ignorant slang. There are a few comments, if you go far enough, that talk about Oakland.

:) 'tis all. B.Knee

personally I believe that Ebonics, Spangilsh, Konglish are reduced forms of the English language. English had it's origins in Europe and it was used and still is the common language in use in different regions like Scotland, Ireland and England. They have distinct dialects and cultures and they are not afraid to say so. before Blacks, Asians, Mexicans........., spoke English as there main common language they had and have their own language and different dialects in the different regions of their countries. When the U.S. was discovered and all these different groups came here they brought their language, culture and traditions. However they assimilated meaning they adopted English as their primary language regardless of their origins. I have Dutch ancestry but i don't go around speaking Dutch or celebrating every Dutch holiday, it's a fact of my family history which I'm proud of . When people from other countries come here and instead of assimilating meaning, respect the traditions and laws of this country by learning English and making it the primary means of communication they instead decide to brake it apart and come up with your own version of English and name it Spanglish or Ebonics or whatever because they still feel linked to their mother land and want to feel connected. Nothing wrong however don't expect that new form of lengo to be accepted as a language meaning with it's grammatical rules and regulations or to be toughed in schools The English has are rules and regulations that form and are the "frame" or skeleton of any language it's what makes it unique and beautiful. When cultures fuse and decide to come up with their own interpretation of the root language than it should be treated as a transplant with caution and if rejection occurs don't be surprised because there are from different tissues meaning backgronds.

October 25 Blog Post

Hello all,

Here is the question for this blog:

Over the past couple of weeks, we've looked at different varieties of English that have grown out of language contact. Specifically, we've talked about Black English Vernacular (Ebonics) and Spanglish. Other variations are 'Chinglish,' 'Konglish,' and other language hybrids.

Some of the posts in the last round indicated that Ebonics was not a dialect of English, but rather was 'slang' or was a reduced or less intelligent form of Standard English. I'd like us to discuss this more.

Are these hybrids language varieties or are they slang? Are they full language systems or are they reduced or less intelligent forms of Standard English? In your response, be sure that you indicate why you think this, based on what you've learned in class so far about language and society.

Remember, you need to do your first post by Sunday night and then respond to two other entries by Tuesday before class.

Thanks,
Tiffany